Curse

BlackSephir · Nov 05, 2009, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

Sorry you're wrong there pal. Heroes made the game entirely too easy as opposed to brainless henchies with crap builds.

And opposed to 8 people, especially now, with pve skills?

Ryssul Sylverhart · Nov 05, 2009, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay02483

no im not whining about them im just saying they are very good builds but they r overused to the point no1 wants to run anything else...but what im trying to say i liked it how it use to be when thered be 2-3 districts on everytown on the map and it was just pugs and failing i had fun with that

Me too!

I'm one of those people that still try to PUG every mission. Whether we win or fail two-thousand times in a row, it's always hella fun to me just get out there and share joys and frustrations with other people. That's the one aspect I really miss about this game.

I hate going into mission outposts and seeing it barren as hell (especially in the Prophecies game). I chose an online game to interact with others, but most people are like "H/H and/or guildies for me and nothing else because everyone sucks!!!" Playing by yourself is so lonely. If I wanted to play a single-player game, I would've picked one up. D:

Gun Pierson · Nov 05, 2009, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Do I miss how it was before heroes? Not at all.

Forced pugging was and still is overrated by a minority that discriminates the majority who wants 7 heroes. Thanks a lot for that. As Anet wants to please as many players as possible, they chose the middle road and nobody gets what they really want.

Skyy High · Nov 05, 2009, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

There was no difference before heroes and after heroes.

Let me repeat that: There was no difference between before heroes and after heroes.

I have henched every mission in prophecies and factions multiple times. The usual rule in our guild was "just hench it." If the person in question couldn't, then they were considered hopeless.

The blame placed upon heroes is misguided. Heroes did not overnight turn the game into something that could be done single player, it was already a game that could be done single player. It was not long after heroes were added that the community at large realized that the came could be done single player, the heroes themselves are but a red herring.

If you want to blame something then blame henchmen and the community learning about the game.

QFT. <3 my heroes, letting me play by myself more easily and have a heck of a lot more fun doing it.

Aera Lure · Nov 05, 2009, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

^The suggestion of henchmen was frowned on because the most needed part of the party was usually a monk, and alesia's bar sucked ass. In factions they actually gave henchmen decent bars what didn't suck(they could actually remove hexes and conditions and not just spam Heal breeze VS shattering wind riders till they 0 out of energy...).

No, there was a day when any henchman addition was frowned on and done only as a last resort, irrespective of Alesia's skill bar quality which agreed, was indeed pitiful. All-human groups were very common, they were the majority in any outpost during Prophecies (random PUGs or teams of mostly guild members and a pick-up player) and, if you were careful in which you joined instead of joining blindly, they were most often successful. Even when better henchmen appeared in Factions, most groups rarely used more than one or two, if they did at all. In my experience.

In some outposts it took a little while to find the right party to go with and to have a monk or two join, but I rarely experienced the epic failures often described on these forums when it comes to PUGs. Even less so when I was the monk. There were, of course, some truly epic and humorous ones, but much higher percentage of successes than fails. I PUGged in all-human groups across 6 of my characters for Protectors in Prophecies and Factions. Best times I had in the game.

Edit: I wouldnt do it now. I'd hesitate to think it could even be done now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

Other then that the rest of that paragraph is either false or you're playing a different game...

Seems as though you did not PUG successfully so have a bias towards Heroes. I understand that. A lot of people cheered their appearance and being freed from other players. I also do understand the usefulness of Heroes, the ease with which they made play, and the fun in that, even though its a different kind of fun. As I said, I used them in Nightfall and going forward, but the game changed upon their release. There's no falsehood either in that or in my statement about enjoying the game more before Heroes, so I havent any idea what you are going on about.

Cuilan · Nov 05, 2009, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

Other then that the rest of that paragraph is either false or you're playing a different game...

I have to go with Aera Lure on this. I've come across groups that weren't so great, but I've found pugs in general to be good. Maybe you're the one playing the different game?

upier · Nov 05, 2009, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

Sorry you're wrong there pal. Heroes made the game entirely too easy as opposed to brainless henchies with crap builds. (You notice there was a major update to henchies recently too). Where I used to run with 7 henchies I can run with 3 heroes now and not even have to fight just pickup the loot after they clobber the ai. No you couldn't do that with the old henchies even with 7 of them easily. I remember playing with just henchies and they are nowhere or never have been as good as 3 heroes I can deck out and create synergy with myself in the way I setup their skills.

Heroes had a major impact on pugs and how people played before them. I know I've been here since the start and players just don't pug like they used to and heroes have played a big part in that a major part as they had henchies a full 7 of them long before heroes and there was plenty of pugging and grouping before them. Now all I see are jillions of players with an 8 over their heads and you know very well that's 3 heroes and 4 henchies in the majority of those zombies just standing in zones as none of them ever say anything or move.

Read again what he said.
There is a SLIGHT difference in what he said and what you responded to.

Reverend Dr · Nov 06, 2009, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

No, there was a day when any henchman addition was frowned on and done only as a last resort, irrespective of Alesia's skill bar quality which agreed, was indeed pitiful.

What changed is that people learned more about the game. They realized that it wasn't the henchman bars that were so bad, but the garbage they were running. The first week of guild wars was when I discovered henchmen. Myself and a friend were stuck in the desert and after a terribly failed pug we joked that even henchmen (as we also suffered under that delusion at the time) would have been better. As a joke we filled the party with henchmen and went in. We blazed through all of the desert and killed glint on our first try.

Heroes didn't present any fundamental change to guild wars. The game could already be played completely single player long before the addition of heroes. Yes, heroes made single play more efficient and you could build heroes around you rather than building yourself around henchmen. However, heroes merely catalyzed the community opening its eyes and realizing that they do not need to wait around for pugs and that they can proceed under their own power.

The game has always been like this. This is not a result of adding heroes, but a result of the community realizing more about the game.

Now, I haven't passed any judgement on whether or not this is necessarily a bad thing. As many other people have stated, they will go afk or quit mid mission and of course the bots don't care; I share a similar playstyle. Should the game be playable alone or should it require groups of live players? This is not a question with a yes or no answer, it is a question of game design: What type of game did they want to make?

But I'm really just irritated at the number of people that blame heroes when our current situation is only caused by the community becoming smarter and more aware about the game.

QueenofDeath · Nov 07, 2009, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

And opposed to 8 people, especially now, with pve skills?

You mean pve only skills and consumables? At any rate it was better before heroes, before consumables, before pve only skills, before grinding wars and way better before SF sins and even Factions. So, yeah I wish and hope GW2 goes back to the way it was and eliminates any ability to run through content and has a healthy open pvp system so I can stomp on some of these moe's in the game.

)

Chasing Squirrels · Nov 07, 2009, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Both I guess. I kinda get lonely always playing with heroes. Makes it feel like a single player

For some reason I enjoyed beating a mission after attempting it for the 20th time with a pug.

N E D M · Nov 07, 2009, 06:01 AM // 06:01

I specifically dislike being required to bring hero "x" on a certain mission. If they are required, they should be as an npc.
i do harbor a special dislike for dunkoro as well...

Rexion · Nov 08, 2009, 01:11 PM // 13:11

I remember life before and after heroes. Both have their high points.

Before, I had more friends that enjoyed GW. Now most have quit. I made most of my friends in missions. Who would have thought?

After, I rarely actually play with friends now. But I don't have to worry about getting yelled at for having to pee midmission. Nor do I have to worry about bringing a crappy monk that is running Orison of Healing, HB, and then the rest Dervish Scythe attacks.

My least favorite scenario now:
I'm helping a newbie in my guild. I join their team. They need a monk. I say "oh one sec." then pop Tahlkora or Dunkoro, who are running above average builds.
"Ew no! Heroes are bad." We get the monk with Orison, HB, and Dervish Scythe attacks.

~ Dan ~ · Nov 08, 2009, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

So, yeah I wish and hope GW2 goes back to the way it was and eliminates any ability to run through content and has a healthy open pvp system so I can stomp on some of these moe's in the game.

)

As much as I love open PvP, I sure hope GW2 doesn't do it. GW was supposed to be about skill based arena PvP, not ganking bob as he kills a walking plant. You can't have both open world PvP + arena PvP in a game and expect both to strive. Just look at AoC - minigames were dead.

Selket · Nov 08, 2009, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Uh, before heroes I just got henchmen instead.

There was nothing to miss, either way.

Star Gazer · Nov 08, 2009, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

Heroes had a major impact on pugs and how people played before them. I know I've been here since the start and players just don't pug like they used to and heroes have played a big part in that a major part as they had henchies a full 7 of them long before heroes and there was plenty of pugging and grouping before them. Now all I see are jillions of players with an 8 over their heads and you know very well that's 3 heroes and 4 henchies in the majority of those zombies just standing in zones as none of them ever say anything or move.

heroes or no heroes, i still would not have pugged with the likes of you or anyone else. i have ALWAYS been successful doing everything with henchies (yes, this dates allllll the way back to april 05)...failure is not an option. time is precious. i do not wish to get 30 minutes deep in a mission only to have some retard with mending over aggro and have a party wipe. no, ill instead take 30 minutes and be successful on the first run.

it just baffles me to see the arrogance of the ones against heroes/henchies. regardless of their bar or AI, they will almost always have a better bar than humans, and will atleast have the sense to run out of a meteor show or firestorm.

BlackSephir · Nov 08, 2009, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

You mean pve only skills and consumables?

And ability to think. Ability to prioritize. Ability to split properly.
Also, it's cool that you addressed what I was talking about.

you- heroes made the game easier lol
me- because 8 people was super hard mode?
you- lol consumables pve skills heroes all the same thing :DDD

Sword Hammer Axe · Nov 08, 2009, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Well I still have fun with heroes. I always played hench before

besides if I want to join up with someone I useually just shout "anyone wanna come along for fun?" and useually someone replies within a minute or two. if noone does: No biggie. I go alone XD

Skyy High · Nov 08, 2009, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

You mean pve only skills and consumables? At any rate it was better before heroes, before consumables, before pve only skills, before grinding wars and way better before SF sins and even Factions. So, yeah I wish and hope GW2 goes back to the way it was and eliminates any ability to run through content and has a healthy open pvp system so I can stomp on some of these moe's in the game.

)

Because Droknar's runs, Sanctum runs, Thirsty River runs, *insert pretty much any mission here* runs, invincible 55s (pre- and post- prot bond), and 100k+ weapons and mods weren't around in Prophecies, right?

Zahr Dalsk · Nov 08, 2009, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

You mean pve only skills and consumables? At any rate it was worse before heroes, before consumables, before pve only skills, before grinding wars and way better before SF sins and even Factions. So, yeah I wish and hope GW2 goes back to the way it was and eliminates ~80% of the player base and has a healthy open pvp system so I can get killed by real players.

)

Fixed that for you.

And just as an FYI, ArenaNet have already stated that most of the game's content can be done solo (alongside the companion AI). It's possible that some areas, such as dungeons/elite missions, will require full player teams to complete, but ArenaNet will implement heroes in GW2 once the complaints start rolling in. (Primarily from people whose classes aren't part of the precious PUG meta you like so much, but also from the general 80% of Guild Wars players who prefer H/H gameplay.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

It would be a group oriented game and there wouldn't be stupid foolish builds like SF and 600's and 55's.

You're really very ignorant, aren't you? 55 has been around long before heroes, and that sort of build (solo farming) has and always will be around, regardless of how group play works. 600 is just a variation of that, and even today, PUG groups always seem to insist on using an SF sin. Because human group players are retarded like that - they think tanking is good in Guild Wars.

DreamWind · Nov 08, 2009, 10:23 PM // 22:23

I cant' believe I'm posting in this bad thread again, but I can't help it. Me and Bryant Again have already been over every angle of hero vs antihero.

The only good argument for heroes is that they allow people to play in empty areas. Fine. But when I say everything was better before Nightfall, I mean EVERYTHING. In Prophecies you could get a team basically anywhere in the game.

Let us put that aside though because it is in the past and there are people who would still rather play with AI. Here is my problem. Everybody continually uses their worst pug experiences and empty districts as some sort of justification for the greatness of heroes. Don't people realize that the game was built as a guild/team game, particularly a guild game?

Whether people realize it or not, heroes DID change the game drasitcally. They changed the entire philosophy of Guild Wars. Guild Wars used to be a team game with the option to hench. Since heroes, Guild Wars has become a solo game with the option to team. There is a gigantic difference. The game has changed and the community has changed. If you like how the game is now then more power to you. But a large part of the reason the majority likes heroes now is because the majority who don't like what the game has become as a whole have quit and aren't posting about it.

While I don't put all the blame on heroes for all this change, they certainly take a lot of it. They were the single biggest shift in gameplay in the history of Guild Wars.